Quick Response to Windsor on Luther and Mary

One of my comments has been addressed by Scott Windsor (of the Roman communion) in a post that is mostly addressed to my friend, James Swan (link to SW’s post). I’m just responding to the portion of Mr. Windsor’s post that relates to what I said.

Mr. Windsor’s comments are as follows (his block quotations are, I believe, from Mr. Swan):

Notice the ambiguity as to which conception is being referred to is no longer… an ambiguity! TurretinFan has rightly commented on this:

“As you can see, context is key. “Mary’s conception,” or “the conception of Mary” (or replace “Mary” with “Virgin”) can refer to two very different things: it can refer to the conception of Mary in the womb of her mother, and it can refer to the conception of Jesus (or any of his ἀδελφοὶ – look up its etymology). In the latter case, Mary is doing the conceiving, in the former case she is receiving the conceiving. The difference in meaning is significant and – in English – the difference can only be determined by looking at the context.” [source]

So now Mr. Swan, via the pseudonymic “TurretinFan” (TF) delves into the etymological fallacy. IF the word in question were intended to mean what they say, then an ACCURATE translation would have been, “in the moment of the Virgin’s conception of the Son…” – so if Swan and TF are correct here, then every translator of this passage to English has it wrong. Now, before continuing, let us also consider the fact that this word TF throws at us is a GREEK word… I am unaware of Luther’s Works being in Greek as he primarily wrote in German or Latin, not Greek. Why the Greek here?

Now, the word he cites here is transliterated “adelphos” which is literally “a” (from) “delphus” (the womb) – and further means “a brother.” [source] It is simply illogical that we’re talking about a “brother” here in “the Virgin’s conception.” TF even states it COULD mean the conception of the Virgin – so we’ll take that argument and leave the irrational one behind.

Now add to the fact that the later Luther states, “Every man is corrupted by original sin, with the exception of Christ” (1540). “Christ alone is a son of the flesh without the sin of the flesh” (1544).

Again, this statement demonstrates a lack of understanding of the definition of the Immaculate Conception. The definition does not say that the Blessed Virgin did not inherit the “sin of the flesh,” only that she was preserved from the STAIN of that sin in the moment of her conception. Will Mr. Swan admit to this fact?

I answer:

1) Mr. Windsor’s allegation of fallacy of etymology is unsupported. In fact, the argument that Mr. Windsor offers doesn’t begin to address what a supporting argument for such an assertion would need to address. Mr. Windsor doesn’t, for example, identify a word that has had its meaning determined etymologically and then explain what the correct meaning should be.

2) Mr. Windsor’s allegation about what an “ACCURATE” (his caps) translation would be just reflect his apparently weak knowledge of the English language. The expression, in English, “the virgin’s conception” can (standing by itself) refer to one of two things: (1) the action of the virgin (a virgin shall conceive) or (2) the action on the virgin (Mary’s mother’s conception of Mary). It’s perfectly accurate to say “the virgin’s conception” with respect to either of those two meanings.

3) Mr. Windsor’s claim “if Swan and TF are correct here, then every translator of this passage to English has it wrong” is based on his apparently inadequate grasp of English, as explained above. It is also somewhat strange, because it is not like there are hundreds or even dozens of English translators of this particular passage of Luther’s works. Mr. Windsor doesn’t even identify two such translators (at least not anywhere near this discussion), though perhaps there are two.

4) The comment about Jesus ἀδελφοὶ also whizzes over Mr. Windsor’s head. There was a primary point and a secondary point to the comment. The primary point was that an expression like “Mary’s conception” (standing alone) could refer to her conception of any of the children she brought forth. Of course, in this instance it refers to Jesus’ conception, not James’ or any of the Lord’s other ἀδελφοὶ. The second point was that Jesus, according to Scripture, had ἀδελφοὶ – those who were from the same womb as him – that includes brothers and what Scripture refers to as “αδελφαι” which refers to sisters. That secondary point is not really relevant to the issue of what Luther’s talking about, at all. It’s just a point that needs to be made against those who mistakenly hold to the idea that Mary remained a virgin after Jesus’ birth.

5) Mr. Windsor’s attempt to separate the “STAIN” (his bold and caps) from the sin is not something he can support from the official teachings of his church. Read the document that defined the dogma, and you’ll see that the “stain” and the “sin” are used essentially interchangeably.

Notice, in the following series how “taint,” “stain,” and “sin” are used interchangeably and how it is repeatedly affirmed that Mary was free from original sin (in order of appearance, numbers just for ease of reference, in case you should wish to check/correct me)

  1. “absolutely free of all stain of sin”
  2. “free from all taint of original sin”
  3. “conceived without the stain of original sin”
  4. “preserved free from all stain of original sin”
  5. “preserved from original sin”
  6. “preserved from original sin”
  7. “was never subject to original sin, but was completely preserved from the original taint,”
  8. “all men are born infected by original sin; nevertheless, it solemnly declared that it had no intention of including the blessed and immaculate Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, in this decree and in the general extension of its definition.”
  9. “free from the original stain”
  10. “the Virgin’s supreme sanctity, dignity, and immunity from all stain of sin”
  11. “her most excellent innocence, purity, holiness and freedom from every stain of sin”
  12. “free from all contagion of sin”
  13. “the worm of sin had never corrupted”
  14. “when one treats of sin, the holy Virgin Mary is not even to be mentioned”
  15. “to her more grace was given than was necessary to conquer sin completely”
  16. “entirely free from every stain of sin”
  17. “she, differing so much from the others, had only nature in common with them, not sin”
  18. “holy and removed from every stain of sin”
  19. “conceived without original stain”
  20. “preserved free from all stain of original sin”
  21. “conceived without original sin”

So, unless Mr. Windsor has more than simply his own say-so, we must respectfully insist that it is he, not us, who is unfamiliar with Roman dogma on the subject. He is committing the fallacy of emphasis by assuming that “stain of original sin” is supposed to be different in its sense than “original sin.”

6) I was aware of Mr. Windsor’s novel interpretation of Ineffabilis Deus, and I had asked him previously to tell me where he got his ideas from – whether from some official source or from his own creativity. He didn’t respond then (that I’m aware of), and I don’t suppose he’ll respond now, although he has the opportunity to respond in the comment box.

-TurretinFan

Advertisements

One Response to “Quick Response to Windsor on Luther and Mary”

  1. Hifzu Says:

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s


%d bloggers like this: